I have a proposal

[cdiehl]

As I mentioned on another thread, I play a master Cavalier. My proposal is that you allow me to become part of your group, so I can induct you into my order. I have been told by Atrus that you have a friend planning to come to a future event to play a Cavalier and create an order for you. If you have anything written about this order already, I'd suggest you post it here, in case there is a way it and my own idea can be combined.
I have an order, but I am rewriting its information to make it simpler, since people who looked at my original idea thought it was too complicated. Please tell me what you think of this, and if you have ideas about how to change it.

Order of the Preservers of the Chalice

Symbol - Blue with a red vertical stripe down the middle, and a silver chalice within the stripe.
(The chalice symbol is a simple line drawing, meant to be easy to copy. I'll try to post a drawing of it sometime soon.)

Motto - Freedom for the Realm, Salvation for its people.

Code - For Natallis, we preserve Humility.
For Lumina, we preserve Truth.
For Solnus, we preserve Honor.
For Karthis, we preserve Courage.
For Noctus, we preserve Justice.
For the Chalice, we preserve Duty.
For the Five, we preserve Freedom.
(The code may have to be simplified, but this expresses the idea of the order well. Also, the references to the Five do not disallow people from other religions from joining. There's some background stuff about the Chalice that explains the association with the Five, but it's not directly relevant. I'll tell you all about it sometime.)

Purpose - Defeat any force causing oppression. Teach the people of the Realm the virtues of Humility, Truth, Honor, Courage and Justice that were taught by the Five in the past. Preserve the Realm intact and free until the Five return, or forever if necessary.

Organization - The order is led by its most senior members. The entire order is led by the Cavalier who has been in it the longest, who claims the title of Consul. He is assisted by the next most senior member, who claims the title of Sub-Consul. The order is then divided into several Bands.
(Cavaliers lead the order because that is what they are trained to do. This entire organization is written with the assumption that the order can have a huge number of members.)

A Band is led by a Commandant who is responsible for recruiting members for his own Band. The Commandant is assisted by a Secondant, the next most senior member of the Band.
(I try not to use typical modern Earth army ranks. I have some affection for Roman titles, and can come up with a few ideas of my own.)

A Band is divided into Teams. A Team is a group of five ordinary members, called Preservers, led by a more senior member called an Ensign. The Commandant has the right to assign members of his Band to the Teams. If there are too extra Preservers, they are assigned to the team led by the Secondant. Ensigns are the most senior members of the Band, and when a new team is formed, the most senior Preserver is promoted to Ensign. If a Band becomes very large, the Commandant can promote some of his senior Ensigns to command some of the Teams, giving them the rank of Tribune.
(The order is run by seniority because it's the fairest way to establish who should be in charge. I wanted there to be no way anyone can run the order as a power trip or a clique.)

Consuls, Sub-Consuls, and Commandants are all required to be knights. Knight is a special title awarded in the order to indicate leadership and accomplishment. The following are requirements for becoming a knight of the order.
Cavaliers Rank 2 or better, knowing Heraldic Induction. (Heraldic Induction is necessary to add new members to the order.)
Cavaliers Rank 1 with 10 or more Genetics, knowing Heraldic Induction.
Tradesmen Rank 4 or better.
(Experience is necessary in order to lead.)
Tradesmen Rank 3 with 10 or more Genetics.
(It was suggested to me that characters who spend a lot of Status on genetics instead of new skills should not be penalized.)
Tradesmen Rank 2 with 20 or more Genetics.
Commoner with 10 or more Genetics, knowing 1 armor and 1 weapon.
(If a Commoner joins, they should have a way to advance, too.)
Any person meeting the criteria for knighthood is knighted upon joining the order. Any member who achieves the criteria for knighthood is knighted upon achieving them. This is done without exception. Knights all have the right to become Commandants by forming a Band. If a knight chooses not to form a Band, he may add the title of Knight to his current order rank. Any knight has the right to call on any Cavalier in the order to cast Heraldic Rituals on himself or another member.
(Because a good number of Bands might be run by non-Cavs, they need a way to get access to Heraldic lore to benefit their troops.)
(Brief overview:
Order>Band>Team
Consul - Most senior Cav with knighthood.
Sub-Consul - 2nd most senior member, backs up Consul.
Commandant - Knighted member commanding Band.
Secondant - 2nd most senior member of band, doesn't have to be knighted.
Ensign - Senior member of a Band, commands Team.
Tribune - Senior Ensign assigned to command several Teams.
Preserver - Ordinary member, five Preservers + Ensign = 1 Team.
Knight - Member possessing experience sufficient to become a Commandant, whether or not he chooses to.)


I still need to work on a set of rules for the order, what is or is not allowed and how such things are punished within the order. I'll try to work on that in the next few days and post that here. Please, post responses to my proposal and comments and suggestions about the order. My last idea failed because it was too much about my ideas, so this time I am going to try a different approach.

[Gravius]

This seems very well-ordered, albeit a bit hard to execute. I have a couple of qualms with this, however. (Qualms, {lol}) So, hopefully you can answer them for me.

What is the purpose in showing us this? Why would you find it necessary for FWAP to aid you in creating something that is this well organized? I have heard of the names of the Order of the Panther and Sir Adhemar, and I am rather surprised and honored by your gesture as a master rank Cavalier asking for a merger with FWAP.

As a request, could you add some more information on The Order of the Panther and further add more information on yourself? It would be nice to know these things because I don't believe I've ever seen or met you, and I think the rest of FWAP is in the same boat.

While the whole concept of ensigns and bands sounds interesting, our Guildhall Oath binds us so that we as tradesmen must consider all of ourselves equal to each other. This does not apply to apprentices, for they are not technically tradesmen (this does not make them any less important, I was just stating a point), but to the rest of the actual tradesmen involved, this is somewhat conflicting with the Oath. However, to respect and allow rank is a feasible option. I only find fault in the principle in which you base this system. Just because a tradesmen has reached a certain rank (be it 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th or Master) and have "seniority" does not always make said tradesman the best choice for ensign, or whatever ranking you wish to endow upon them. How would this issue be handled?

It is said in the text that there is already an insignia for this order, and it is well-described in your post. Yet FWAP already has an insignia, which is prominent in George's (Atrus's) flash clip on the main page as well as at the February Market Day. Since we have existing crest and yours is still an idea, how would the whole merger work? How would this issue be resolved if both potential orders were to merge?

As for those in an alternative, "pagan" religion that are currently part of FWAP (if I may speak for them right now): where would our placement be? Your insignia requires the use of the Way of the Five as an explanation for it, yet not all of us believe in the Way of the Five. It would be insulting to don something that contradicts a fellow tradesman's option to create and/or follow a religion of their choice. Let me explain myself for a moment. I believe that putting on the tabbard would be an insult; it would be a sign of the Way of the Five, a religious idea that others in FWAP do not believe in. In thus wearing the tabbard, the members of the alternate religions would be advocating for something they don't believe in.
Unless ALL of the members are of the one religion specified by the crest of the order, then I suggest that some prudence be payed to the matter of the order's basic construct. This means that the idea of including something so heavily entrenched in religion be removed from the ideals of the order to keep a more diverse view. There are religions and then there are orders: try not to mix the two unless ALL members would follow the religion. To make a merger work, this unfair gesture to those of other religions must be resolved, seeing as though the Five is directly related to the insignia of the order and would be insulting to those who are not of the same faith.

Now don't take this as an attack on your idea of merger; it was a very nice gesture to ask for our opinion on the matter. I hope I didn't scare you off, I just wanted to point out these conflicts of interest before we even start talking about merger. I appreciate that you brought your ideas to us, and I hope I have not offended you in any manner. I just wish to show my views on the matter. Your affinity for the Roman ideas has also made Gravius happy, and is willing to give the idea a chance before shooting it down. ;D

[cdiehl]

I'll try to explain this since I seem not to have done a good job.

First of all, my order already exists. I have a surcoat for it. I inducted myself into it in the August of '03. As a result, if you join my order, you'd have to use my symbol to indicate that. However, there is one of me and several of you. If I must, I can simply take my ideas, meld them with whatever you have worked out, and create a new order for you and I.

About religion, nothing in what I wrote says anything about having to worship anything in particular to be a member of my order. I wrote the code to refer to them because the Five existed in the Realm's history, and my character believes those concepts originated with them. If I must, as before, I can think of a different code. If I end up just creating a whole new order, I should anyway.

About organization, while I see what you mean about rank in one's trade being an imperfect means to decide who gets a promotion, it is objective. Knighthoods are awarded based on a combination of rank and genetics because it's objective. Promotions are granted based on seniority and necessity because it's also objective. As arbitrary as it is, there has to be a standard so everyone knows what they need to do to advance.

As for the Order of the Panther, is there anything particular you would like to know about it? Also, you can ask Walter (Sir Agrivar), Tom (Sir Kyle), Eric (Gorfen) and Lisa (Romi) about it too, because they were members of it too.

Finally, what do you want to know about me? It's easier for me to answer specific questions rather than blurt out a bunch of things about myself.

I think I covered everything you asked about.

[Gravius]

I believe I have not made myself clear as well. It seems these ideas are not going to solve themselves, so I guess I will attempt to ask more objective questions: why are the Pathers no longer in existence? And if you have inducted yourself into your own order, why haven't the players you before mentioned from the Order of the Panther joined you? I believe that those characters now are in their own order, titled The Order of Chivalry led by Sir Kyle. I would like to know what happened to cause this "parting of the ways" if at all possible.

As for the symbol and tenets of the order, I was just afraid that it would become synonymous with "The Way of the Five" and would be considered as such. This stems from the fear that if the pagan members of the order were to wear your symbol, that it would reflect the idea of hypocrisy on said members. Your codes bring up the Five often as a source, and the preservation concept implies that the order preserves these tenets based on the Five because it believes in the origins of the Five (i.e. you believe in The Way of the Five.). As a member of the Morrigan, I don't believe in the "existence" that was said to be before the Age of Death. As a historian, I have to admit they must have existed, yet not in the overglorified way that The Way of the Five suggests. There's historical accuracy and hearsay, and the origins of the Five and the Realm fall under the latter. The historical accuracy is that they must have existed in some form, yet the whole creation and release of the creatures into the Realm is myth. Therefore, I see the Five as just other divine avatars, and show no respect to them otherwise than to admit their existence in the Realm. Therefore, admitting to your tenets is being hypocritical to me.

I hope that explained my point of view on the matter of religion.

As for the objective choosing of a leader for a group, is not proving your worth in combat objective enough? Genetic, lore, etc., while easily measurable, doesn't matter if you do not use it effectively, and through the testing of one's mettle against Evermoore's foes or performing one's duty to Guildhall, the warlord, the town and/or the order, one should be chosen. If procession must be paid, then the whole order should vote on representatives and from there choose. Knights should be appointed by earning trust and proving yourself, not how many beads you have or spaces you have filled on your soul.

As for knowing you, elucidate more on your Introduction, please. That would be a tremendous help.

[cdiehl]

OK. How about I redo the code and remove references to the Five from the goal? I wrote that stuff because in-game, my character (who does believe not only in the historical existence of the Five but in their eventual return) is the one who made this order. Again, nothing I had written was meant to deny membership to people from religions not related to the Five. There are some exceptions, but they are religions to which NPC's who are the town's antagonists belong. I am able to redo this because the ideas I tried to build this order on can be believed in without worshipping the Five, the Chalice or anything like that.

The reason I chose the standards I chose for advancement is that they are simple and obvious. People can argue about who has proven himself or tested his mettle, but nobody can argue if someone's learned enough to meet these standards. Also, by the time they do meet the standards to be knighted, they have proven themselves and been in a lot of battles for the town or the order. If you are worried that the title of knight confers special powers on a member, it does not. Beyond being able to become Commandant of one's own Band, a knight who remains in the Band he is currently in remains at the rank he had and receives no preferential treatment in receiving a promotion.

I would like someone either to post or send to me any ideas you already have about an order, or at least what you expect from being in an order beyond receiving Heraldic rituals. I am beginning to think I will have to compromise and find ways to accomodate everyone else. Like I said, there's one of me and several of you. I can do it, but I also have my own ideas that I think have value also.

[Rain]

I like how FWAP is right now so I don't think changing it would be a good idea. If you want to make an order then I suggest looking somewhere else because they already have a perfectly good order going on right now.

[cdiehl]

I had heard your group had no order as yet, and I thought I'd suggest what I've come up with. Since you don't want what I made, as much as I love it, I can set it aside because I have no wish to be isolated by it. I would like to know what you would like me to do in order to become part of your group.

[Rain]

The thing is this group is going to become an order. If you would like to join this order that's one thing, but don't try and come here and say "screw your plans, mine are better!" Since you knew these guys were going to become an order, there really was no point to pitch this idea.

[Atrus Rand]

Everyone calm down. It is true in the fact that we are to become an order, but I for one believe that coming into our group is not a bad idea. But as Trino says (a quote more or less...):

"Being a part of FWAP means being equal. No one person is better than the next. A commoner is as good as a fifth rank Tradesman."

In other words, in order for you to join the group, you must understand that our group has no true almightly deciding leader. MacBix is our said leader at the moment, but everything we do is run on voting and collecting information from each member in order to make our decisions truly democratic.

Fwap is equality.

If you truly wish to join our ranks, feel free to approach any FWAP members at any of the next events and we can probably set something up!

Although I also believe your order would be a great one, it just doesn't fit FWAP's ideals.

[cdiehl]

What part of anything I wrote here can be translated as "screw your ideas, mine are better."? At no time have I either denigrated anyone else's ideas or suggested I was in any way better than anyone else. I made a suggestion, and tried to correct misconceptions about it that were brought up. Since that has not worked, I must accept that my suggestion is not wanted. Sad though it is, pouting about it will not change things. If my place is to be part of someone else's creation, I will do it rather than be alone in representing something nobody else cares about.

(Edit)
I am glad someone has finally told me how you prefer to run your group. If I do become a part of your group, and you have someone create your order, they can just induct me and I'll do what I'm required to do.

[Wallace MacBix]

okay sorry guys i couldn't have posted sooner (never go to MR with a good cough, or you'll end up with a bad cold. i've pasted out every day this week more or less after getting home between 5 and 8 after having 12+ hours days at wonderful school, but i'm starting to get better so i can have my say now). okay now first off, Rain was just a bit blunt in his saying, but i personaly thank you for saying what you believe is right. but just so i can say somethings so everybody can see them, for i believe they have been said, but only in the FWAP only section.

Also please excuse any discrepcens i have, for these are just what i think i can recall. also do not mind the words for my vocobulary is more limited than gravys and such my ways of saying things might be more blunt and come across the wrong way (kind of like what Rain said, he was just looking out for his friends, he did not mean to offend you CDiehl)

i believe in May '04 we started coming up with ideas for an order (i know it was kettle run because we were in tents, and it makes sense if it was Nexus moon). also it is quite funny that this thread started, because about a week ago i said to Gravy and Atrus that we need a section about FWAP on our intro page so people can see what we are like and not have to ask us. anyways...

as of now we have decided on these four Codes (order pending): Honor, Justice, Courage, Kinship

now my memmory is quite page, but our historian (gravy) has it all in writing at his house, so next time he's home we're gonna start on that "about FWAP" section. so i'll just see if i can rememebr some stuff from memmory.

Leader: Would be our 1st knight (is currently me: Wallace)
Battle Master: Wallace
Lts: Atrus, Traiz
Historian: Gravy
Treasuer: Trino
Information Gather: Deacon
Members: Everyone else

You listen to your superiors (ie in battle i have control, or atrus and traiz if i'm not there/send them on their own mission), but only if they don't give illogical demands (thus to prevent sucide charges/commands, and illogical requests)

as a superior you care for your troops and do your best to make sure that they stay alive

Never attack another FWAP member

you have freedom of race, religion, trade, or gender and free choice and will be respected even if others in the group feel otherwise. (for ex: everyone in FWAP has a chance to become a Lt.)

we are family and we stick together through thick and thin

don't charge fellow FWAP members for rituals

don't leave another member behind/if you see one in trouble do your best to help them

now for the most part these haven't been used that month, for this past market day was our first where we all stood together to fight the oncoming hoards, yet these are our ideal things.

now i might have made up some of those (i know i've said it like 5 times now, but i want to be clear) but i believe thats the jist of it.

and as for our meetings, so far i've sat at the head (if we're at a table, otherwise we could just be sitting/laying anywhere in our cabin) and try more or less to lead the meeting and we just disscuse things and try to stay on topic as much as possbile.

also as a side note, most of us have known each other before we even started MR, in fact most of us started together (i believe 9 of 12 FWAP started the same month) so we're all more or less like family both in and out of game. and just recently have we started asking people if they wished to join.

also this feb was our 1 year and this is when we finally started wearing our symbols (which have been in the works for, literally, months).

i believe thats most everything i can say right now. at least that i can remember from reading your posts 5 min ago (damn sleep inducing medicen).

Edit: also some stuff that i forgot, i agree with Gravy about the whole religion thing. about 1/3 of us are devout Morrigan followers, 1/3 WoTF, and the remainers have not picked a religion yet. so presiding in an order that has a a line that says "will wait till the five return" is something that Wallace would not do at all.

secondly, if i might ask, why have you not been able to attend an event in over a year? (i understand because i know that there are many people who i have not met yet, and many new people that i meet each moon, who i think are new, yet started long before we came into the picture) i'm just curious why you haven't been able to make it. (also a simple answer, like work, money, or time will suffice, i'm not asking for personal detials).

thidly, i do want to say that you do have everything well thought out, yet it is very complicated and for this to be implemented it would require at least 20 people. and almost always they would need to be present at every event. and what happend if a leader of a team couldn't make it, or the 2nd in command of a team? it you had an actual army your idea would work very well, but for MR standards if you have 25+ people in your group/order, you can almost guarentee that some have other characters and wouldn't always PC the one that belonged to your order. so much sub divison can cause confussion as much as it tries to prevent it. carrying an order trough the hecktic battles that we encounter would take time and by that time the order you gave might not be needed/ hurt more than help.

for FWAP we only have 3 groups. 1 lead one, Aturs and Traiz each lead another. and this is only if we split up, which we haven't yet. for the most part its just us together as a whole. and if we did split up we are already thining our ranks more than i personaly like. i'm just saying that you have good planing but the logostics behind it is maddening.

and this question was rattling in the back of my head since i started reading your posts: why would a Master Caliever be instreasted in an adventuring group comprized of 11 2nd rankers and 1 3rd ranker (with no 3rd rank lore).



also as a side note (this is just directed to everyone in general): do you know anything about Sir Adhemar, that could help us in anyway (order of chilevery if any of you have an account here it would be very appricated).


and secondly for any of those that wish to join (since that thread might take a while to set up) we don't really care about age that much either. i know we all are younger than you from deacon (14) to traiz (21) to ma ha (vitos mom: don't know how old, nor would i post it if i did). we try to treat all equally.

[cdiehl]

First of all, the reason I hadn't gone to an event in so long is because I have a hard time getting to events. I can't drive, so I need to get a ride. The last event I was at was April of '04, and on that Sunday morning, I was the person in a blue and red surcoat who had no weapon and kept grabbing thrown weapons from the ground to toss at the enemy. The weapon I had during the battle the previous night, a polearm, was solid-blowed by an NPC. I was a chubby, quiet male human with dark hair who tended to return from travels in the field dead or seriously injured, and often sat quietly by himself in or around the inn.

About the references to the Five in the description of my order, those are motivated by my character's beliefs, but not by a desire to force anyone to worship anything. Members of almost any religion would be allowed to join, but the exceptions are those that dedicate themselves to conquest or bigotry. As I see no evidence of anything like that in the religion of Morrigan, there would be no problem. It is a moot point, though.

I am older than almost all of you, being 29, and I have played my character since almost the beginning of MR. I started to play him the second event ever, because I was an NPC the first one.

The reason I, the player of a master Cavalier, would want to be part of your group is because I want to be part of something. Why your group when there are so many established ones? I have gotten into OOG arguments with people in just about every other group, and I do not think any of them would accept me because of that. I might be wrong, but I prefer to let sleeping dogs lie.

About my order, the idea was that it could be as large or small as the people in it want to make it. Members who are qualified to form their own Bands would not be required to do so, but if they did, they would have to personally recruit the people who would follow their lead so the people they get want them as leaders. The point was to ensure that people put in charge would be people others will listen to.

About your order, I should tell you that you will need a motto and a code for it. The motto is written on your weapons, shields and armor that are to receive the Heraldic enhancement, in addition to the order's symbol. This enhancement will give them more solid blows to destroy as long as a member carries them. The code is recited when using Heraldic Code to delay the effect of mind-altering lore such as Dominate or Torture. You might want to consider what the concepts of courage, honor, justice and kinship mean to your order, and what you want to accomplish as an order. These will help you write the motto and the code for them. Also, you'll need a color scheme for your symbols. Along with the rules, it would be a good idea to have a means to enforce them. Finally, you should consider what each position in the order is responsible for. Consider what else needs to be done, and whether you can assign some of them to the established positions or you need to create a new position for them. Also, how does one move into or out of a position? I realize voting will probably be involved, but under what circumstances can a vote be sought? I know a lot of this is bureaucratic BS, but it needs to be set up for when these things become an issue.

[agrivar]

Chris you can't just come back and try to recruit yourself an order out of game! You have to come back and recruit in-game. You need to actaully act like a cavalier not just talk like one. After leaving the panthers you started your order, and if fell apart becasue you told your members it wasn't worth your time to do heraldic rituals for them. Back in the panthers you called yourself the ritual cavalier but I was the one who cast most of the rituals. Also for the record are you just bad at remembering to use your actions or do you really like dying with 3-4 parrys left.

BTW to anyone on this board that Chris asks for a ride to the event, don't ! I have given him rides for years and he is ungrateful, unappreciative, and has screwed me over on more than one occasion. Theres nothing like driving an hour out of your way getting a flat tire and then finally showing up at your "friends" house only to be told "Oh I guess I should have called you and told you I wasn't going"

[Wallace MacBix]

CDiehl said:

About your order, I should tell you that you will need a motto and a code for it....Also, you'll need a color scheme for your symbols. Along with the rules, it would be a good idea to have a means to enforce them. Finally, you should consider what each position in the order is responsible for. Consider what else needs to be done, and whether you can assign some of them to the established positions or you need to create a new position for them. Also, how does one move into or out of a position? I realize voting will probably be involved, but under what circumstances can a vote be sought? I know a lot of this is bureaucratic BS, but it needs to be set up for when these things become an issue.

you help jog my memmory a bit, as to that first meeting we had about our order oh so long ago. as for our color scheme you can see our symbol (with its approiate colors) floating on the main page (our colors being the more cartoony rendishion) and than you can see me getting beat by the Supreme Commander as the nexus siting in the back and watches (thanks george). but i remember now that we have chosen a motto. and i think we have a code, and if not it would take less than an hour to come up with a few varations for us to vote upon. we have all the positions we need right now and we all know our assigments, in and out of battle. but on a whlole we are all basicly equal. in battle we do have a chain of command, but outside of battle we all have our say and no one persons vote counts more than anothers. and with our rules we do have ways to enforce them and i think thats it.

also though one more thing i think i have forgotten to mention. FWAP isn't a front line combat group, and that might be important to a completly front line fighter.

sure i might be a warrior, but i much prefer Highland warfare (gurillia tactics). plus about 1/3 of our are rogues and rangers, another 1/3 healers and support, and the remaining 1/3 are frontline. not the best frontline combat group. and sadly i've sunck up on things or even just blantenly walked around them when they were talking to someone else and wasn't noticed at all. so i like the sneaky warrior aspect. also if you look at it (from a logisitcs oog perspective) i have the most hits at 5 body, 2 armor. and i am the only person to use a shield (out of the 4 that can use them) and also all of us aren't great fighters/bean bag chuckers. just in practice i beat atrus with a dagger when he had a sword II and yet i was out in the first round of the torny and he almost made it to the end. we enjoy being more of a skermishing/flanking group/rogue group. we work well at that. but personaly i believe that we don't have the numbers, the body, or the lore to go toe to toe against, lets just say, the blood god trolls in a line battle.

also thank you agrivar for giving a little insight.

and to any and all that wish to join FWAP we'll try to get that "about us" section up asap.