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Post by faust on Oct 11, 2004 15:01:34 GMT -5
In reading this thread, I would point out that there currently exists a hole in the Necromancer chart of a 2nd rank spell. I have been involved in discussions as to what kind of spell could replace it (such as "Skeletal Limb/10 minutes/ "Create skeletal <name of limb>"/ Creates a temporary limb that the recipient can use when his limb has been damaged by specific damage (ie. break limb, slice limb, wither limb, burn limb, etc.). If the skeletal limb is affected by specific damage (as listed above), the effect ends.")
I will say this about the changes in the lore chart: don't expect them. Tony has made it very clear to me that he does not intend the errata to go beyond the two pages that it currently takes up. Most of the current errata deals with wording errors and minor changes to specific lore charts. He is very much against any more changes, as he had stated that this current rulebook *is* the final rulebook.
As a pure anecdote, the Juggernaut ballad was heavily discussed on the Bard message boards as a replacement for Song of Command, not Fortitude. It was noted that none of the 5th rank ballads were able to be sung at an ally when the enemy should prove immune to ballads, unlike the other ranks which have ballads which can be sung at both friend and foe during or around combat. (For those who are saying to themselves "Why would you replace Song of Command? You get to dominate people!", try walking around your house singing what you are doing, especially prolonged activities [such as typing on a keyboard]. You get the drift.
As for "useless" 5th rank rituals, the point is to have rituals across the tradesmen spectrum. I have been to events were one or two trades are missing, so that only the higher rank of the ritual was available. Furthermore, even at 5th rank, it makes a Warrior self-sufficient when it comes to making himself invulnerable to projectiles.
As for 4th rank Anchor Spirit, there isn't always a necromancer around when the need arises. That would be akin to saying that Druids and Clerics shouldn't take the spell Dispel since other trades (Necromancers, Wizards, Warlocks) get the spell at a lower rank.
I don't want to discourage discussions, but I would like to point you at an area (the empty 2nd rank Necro spell slot) that is the most likely to addressed. As it stands now, the charts are fairly well balanced in the overall spectrum of the game.
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Post by Wallace MacBix on Oct 11, 2004 20:55:25 GMT -5
i do understand the importance of spreading out lore between the trades and ranks, just as this thread is titled "wishful thinking" like with 20 lore a rank instead of 15. i know i won't happen but it would be nice. as for a 2nd rank necromancer spell i think your sujestion is a great one. also just a bit curious can a splint work on a burnt/frozen or a withered limb?
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Post by faust on Oct 11, 2004 21:55:54 GMT -5
Well, if the effect ends, then the limb returns to its original nature (a broken/sliced/withered/burned/frozen limb), so you could splint the actual limb.
And if you could splint the limb to start with, why would you waste the Necromancer's 2 mana?
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Post by Wallace MacBix on Oct 12, 2004 19:57:01 GMT -5
oh that wasn't the question, sorry i should have made it a little more clearer. not refering to the lore you thought of, but just in general. i know a sliced and a broken limb can be sliced. but i was never too sure about withered or frozen/burnt because a withered limb is kinda like jerky and a forzen/burnt limb wouldn't be able to move for medical reasons, but i didn't think Realms took it that in depth. so i just wanted a general clarify to see if splints worked on all limb affecting lore.
and also am i correct in thinking that a splint can be used in a shield arm and blocked by said shield?
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Post by Wallace MacBix on Oct 17, 2004 0:37:07 GMT -5
hmmmmmmm what about warriors gettiny a waylay or a similar skill like "knock out" or something along those lines, non suprize action, blockable by parry, dilivarded to the back, no weapon requirments. because i think that a warrior is strong enough to litteraly knock someone out with a blow to the skull also because i've dreamed of going, strength, strength, strength, strength, strength (song of strength being sung by rabdin bard), strength of 7. Waylay! and watch their head fly off.
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nop
-Learner-
Bring him back intact includes redundant organs.
Posts: 48
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Post by nop on Oct 17, 2004 11:07:49 GMT -5
there's a difference between adding something "cause i's cool" and ading something because it makes sence. I agree warriors shouldn;t have disarm traps. That makes no sence and would be a great place to add something else (potency 1 or hurl would be really powerful, but since it's 4th rank it may not be too much)
a warrior knockout is a bit much. Thay have plenty of ways to take you down. Knocking someone out without suprise is (in my opinion) probably much harder then you give it credit for.
On a similar note, druids should get anchor spirit for their morphed critters.
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Post by faust on Oct 17, 2004 15:44:02 GMT -5
hmmmmmmm what about warriors gettiny a waylay or a similar skill like "knock out" or something along those lines, non suprize action, blockable by parry, dilivarded to the back, no weapon requirments. because i think that a warrior is strong enough to litteraly knock someone out with a blow to the skull also because i've dreamed of going, strength, strength, strength, strength, strength (song of strength being sung by rabdin bard), strength of 7. Waylay! and watch their head fly off. What, having 4 fatal actions and 5 parrys aren't enough? And not to forget 5 Stuns, which now works on any part of a person's body. If you want to watch someone's head fly off, get Decapitate. No strengths required. It makes perfect sense for a Warrior to have Disarm Traps. As a master of combat and tactics, they oughta be able to clear a tripwire or mancatcher or something else that would impede forward progress. As for Druids, they have no holes in their spell chart, nor any spells that they would probably be willing sacrafice for the spell. Their spell chart is pretty tight as it is.
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Post by Wallace MacBix on Oct 17, 2004 16:09:47 GMT -5
only problem potency I and II and hurl are abalities (i believe), kinda like claws they considered more inate than being knowledges, so thats why it'd be hard to replace it with a knowledge.
also the point of this thread is just to throw random stuff out there. things that people thought up for consideration or even just some more less intelligent sujestions (i e my waylay for warrior idea) its just "wishful thinking"
hmmm thers only 4 warrior lore i would ever be able to even think about calling into consideration would be disarm traps, escape, detect poison, and catch.
but i can make vaild points on why we should have most of these things....
disarm traps: as you said helps all around, but still usually a warrior would around 4th rank can take a trap and still be standing.
escape: i have never even seen a tradesmen in bindings, the only reason i can think of is if the sherrif is taking someone in, but overall i don't see any importance in this knowledge. (also this calls into play the custody ritual)
detect poison: yes i know that it is very good and all, but it only works on checking food, exstracting poison from venom blades, and weapons from NPCs, and determining what posion someone has, which can usualy be found out anyway as long as you know what most of the symptoms are.
catch: i know every implication of this, especially because of trino, but most warriors use shields and either a sword 3 or 4. only those that activily use florintine and have good reflexes would recieve any use from this, most thrown weapons can be blocked with a shield or a sword swing (can heavy thrown weapons be blocked? like the kind monkeys use) so it lets use either catch the weapons or vials and than throw them back, but i think by 5th rank most warriors would be too into using their normal weapons that catch doesn't seem like it would do anything. also can you catch spores?
it just seems that we ran out of weapons and combat oriented knowledges so we gave warriors some random stuff. and since it is at 4th and 5th its almost when we reach our pinical point we get lesser things. i agree with just about everything on the chart, it just seems like we get the short end of the staff (knowledge wise) when we approach masterhood. everything we have can be good in general but i don't think its good for us when we get it.
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Post by Wallace MacBix on Oct 17, 2004 16:27:01 GMT -5
what about a sieze spell, or sieze *specific type of thing (beast/reptile/avian/undead/ect)* for spell casters.
also why was Siren's Song taken off the Bard skill tree?and are there Sirens in the Realms, or anything for that matter, that still has it?
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Post by faust on Oct 17, 2004 22:28:22 GMT -5
The knowledge Escape can be used to get out of mancatcher traps. Beyond that, there hasn't been any real need to bind people (the days of the Quadruple Augment Double Dominate are behind us now). I mean, not even from an NPC point of view is bindings used that much.
::mental note to self: next time i write something, be sure to use something where Escape would be damn handy::
I disagree with your assessment of getting "lesser" knowledges, I believe that the knowledges give the character more roundness. Meaning, that you aren't simply someone who just picks up a weapon and hits people with it, you can do something *more*.
If I remember correctly, one of the major issues with Siren's Song is that it would really pick off NPCs (who are vastly outnumbered as it was) and take away the overall challenge. Another factor was a safety issue; the target could be drawn into a major beatdown by a group working in tandem with the Bard.
Well, I see myself as a Devil's Advocate on this sort of discussion, only from the many discussions I had in previous years on the subject of trade charts and the lore within them. You should see an older rulebook, you'd be amazed as to how some of the trades have evolved over the years. I mean, within my own lifetime as a player, when I started playing the game, Rogues had 10 poisons (2 poisons per rank, each poison took up one slot). The highest rank poisons were Blindness and Instant Death.
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Post by Wallace MacBix on Oct 17, 2004 23:32:57 GMT -5
wow that is a lot different. the only changes i really know of is that runes, alchmey, (and now i know) posions went from learning everything by itself to a group thing. that sirens song was taken away from bards, that elemantal path II (15 dam) and II (25 dam), ummmm what else do i rememeber Fletch telling us....the nexus could be hurt by spells and how Glendall took down and entire lobe himself. how the step and grunt rule used to always stop ballads. and thats about all the "old rules" i can remember. oh and i remember someone saying something about a hallow ground (warlock i believe) a ground for any spell. i can just iminage how many things have changed and if anything else will change in the future. i'm sure just about everything that's here today is only because of long hours of thinking for the mannagers and months of trial and error for the entire town.
oh another random question, i know if you block a heavy weapon with a shield, its destroied. what about if you have armror on? if it hits you in the chest (or whereever) and your wearing armor is said armor destroied? just curious.
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Brian K
-Scholar-
I'll show you crazy!
Posts: 64
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Post by Brian K on Oct 18, 2004 20:58:22 GMT -5
Ya know what warlocks used to get? Bucklers at second, Shields at fourth.
Ya know what we get now?
Bucklers. At fifth
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nop
-Learner-
Bring him back intact includes redundant organs.
Posts: 48
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Post by nop on Oct 19, 2004 22:57:08 GMT -5
and your still arguably the most powerful trade, deal with it.
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Post by Wallace MacBix on Oct 20, 2004 4:26:04 GMT -5
thats going a little far, every trade can be considered the most lethal, in some way or another. Nop when you hit 4th rank and get insect swarm, what do you think is going to happen, things around you are going to drop. sure it can be dispelled but even quickcasting it will take two seconds. Warlocks get a nice combo of spells and melee lore, wizards get some great spells, clerics are scary when they get up there, warriors get 4 fatal lore, calaviers 1 plus they can make/lead orders, ect.... Every trade has their perks and if you consider everything that everytrade gets its balanced. picking your trade, in my oponion, is more upon personality and how you want to be during Realms. Sure individual ranks may be towards one trade or another but when you look at the whole everything even outs in the end and everybody has a way to do what their trade is good at.
hmmm in the true essance of wishful thinking, a week long MR event, or even better a month long one (during the summer) where you could pay like $5 a day or $100 for the entire month and get a pass type thing and everyone could come and go as they please. with rotating groups of NPCs, mabye 4; 1 group per week, with 1 producer and mabye 3-4 assistant producers, 1 per week. and every one, including the NPCs would be in the dark until it was their day to take over NPCing. and the NPCs could be players for the other weeks and if their kept in the dark it wouldn't affect the storyline in any way, nor would they know what to expect.
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nop
-Learner-
Bring him back intact includes redundant organs.
Posts: 48
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Post by nop on Oct 20, 2004 9:49:07 GMT -5
there are very few spells wizards get that warlocks do not. Move, fly and hold portal. All of these are very situational. So, warlocks are very effective combat casters.
Warlocks also get quite a bit of warrior lore. So much so that it is not until negate was created that I saw anyone (other than Winston) play a wizard. Even now, more people would play a warlock because it is almost like playing a wizard yet you can better defend yourself in melee combat.
so if you ask me, do wizards need a little more power, yes. Not a lot, just a bit. Maybe if their EP was not Elemental Path but Elemental Preferance so they could use any element so they remain effective against opponents with immunities. Possibly any element exept the one opposed to their elemental preferance. The point is if it's immune to your element a wizard is only good for distracting the opponent while the warlock could enter melee and be fairly effective.
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